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> Undeployable Uh-60 Blackhawks?
F/A-18 Super Bug
Posted: May 11 2014, 03:36 PM
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I had a read on the Blackhawk page on this site but obviously it was more about the Serial numbers :D

I tried nearly 20+ searches on Google however came up empty, I just interested to know what it is about OUR Blackhawks that made them undeployable to the Afghanistan so we can infil and exfil our own troops?

So according to the Blackhawk serial page we received our first UH-60 in 1987 and our last one in 1991. I'm just wondering if the Army Aviation dropped the ball in keeping them upgraded with the latest avionics and other such items like the latest night vision equipment or air-air refueling probes?

Lastly when it comes to the MRH90 helicopter beating out the US built UH-60M Black Hawk was it because it was a fly-by-wire, all-composite construction, medium lift helicopter with highest crash-worthiness standard? Or was it more important if the ADF went with a helicopter which could be built in Australia under licence, [B}anyone know if Sikorsky would allow the UH-60M to be built here?[/B]

The NH90 goes by this:

42 aircraft will be produced at Australian Aerospace’s Brisbane plant, with the first two helicopters due for delivery to the ADF in December 2007. A 10-year, through-life support program will be carried out in Australia. Altogether, the MRH-90 programme will generate 400 highly skilled new jobs in Australia and will inject A$ 1.1 billion into the national economy.
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Luig
Posted: May 12 2014, 12:36 PM
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Firstly where does this idea of yours come from:

"...I just interested to know what it is about OUR Blackhawks that made them undeployable to the Afghanistan...."

Why things happen is often due to local political considerations but I'm not really interested in helicopters myself. Please answer my question. Thanks.
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F/A-18 Super Bug
Posted: May 14 2014, 01:52 PM
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Look I get it, you don't like me.

However I asked a couple of soldiers why we have never deployed our Blackhawks to Afghanistan and they said they weren't up to it but didn't know specifically what it was. So I thought this website would be the perfect place to answer that question. So can you help me out mate?

I don't know what you mean by the "local political considerations" sorry :unsure:
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Luig
Posted: May 14 2014, 11:36 PM
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What I do not like are your ignorant assumptions usually contained in 'a question'. Just ask the question. I have no idea who you are so liking you or not is irrelevant. However I will speak directly because that is a military convention. 'Local political considerations' would be our government of the day making a decision about what to deploy usually based on military advice. However not all political decisions are the same as military ones. Guess which one wins.

I'm not really a helicopter person so I'll let others answer your question. The time frame is long by the way. Do you want to know an answer from 'at the beginning to all the way through our time O/S'?
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F/A-18 Super Bug
Posted: May 15 2014, 01:22 PM
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OK I have it on record from other serving soldiers on another Australian military site who said that our Blackhawks were not able to be deployed to Afghanistan because they weren't up to it for some reasons.

That site is VERY big on OPSEC so I wouldn't get very far being a civilian. I personally think it's a benign question to ask why our Blackhawks can't insert our own troops (and we have to rely on other nations) yet there's nothing wrong with our Chinooks being deployed? They are slower, bigger and more easy to hit when inserting and extracting troops.

A detachment of two CH-47 Chinook helicopters from the Regiment was deployed to Afghanistan between late March 2006 and April 2007. In early 2008 two Chinooks were deployed with RWG 1 and than again with RWG 2 in June 2008 as part of Operation Slipper where they took part in combat operations. These operations continued in 2009 and 2010.

I would love to know why we have never deployed either our Blackhawks and/or our Tiger ARHs? None of the answers with break OPSEC so can somebody please help me out?

Cheers guys :blink:
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Warhawk
  Posted: May 15 2014, 07:17 PM
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Quickie

ARH was and is still not "FOC" ala Full Operational Capability for numerous reasons,...and the parts pipeline was, and in some ways still are, immature.

The Area of operations require a chopper with Hot and dry performance, volume, and load capacity, which the S70A9 was not up to.

Add more gear on, it was not going to carry more then 7-8 "Fully Mature and loaded out " super grunts or their ammo and supply (ala Beans and bullets) carrying Quads.

Our main offensive operations was based on a relatively small, (by Allied standards) Special Operations Command Task Force,..TF66, with a SAS Sqn or detachment, one Commando Company ( Either 1Com Reg or 2Com Reg) and a Special Operations Engineer Reg (Formally the Immediate Response Reg)Troop, with supporting Sigs and Logistics

Most "offensive" SOCOM operations were orchestrated with allied Spec Ops Units, or separate, but relied upon the ideal types such as Chooks, be it MH-47Gs, CH-47D/Fs, USMC Super Stallions, MV-22s and the odd RAF Merlin.

The Area of operations had their own Specialised Helicopter Support generally earmarked for those operations, but could be switched all over the Ghan. Other times they used PMV's,...Bushmasters and not Helios

"Blackhawks" were mainly Aeromedical evacuation, specifically USAF HH-60Gs and other Allied types. At a stretch, they were used in Command and control.

Depending on nocturnal and specific operations, some US Spec Ops Command MH-60G/Ms and little bird types were used by our Boys

The Ghan was mainly a Medium to Large Chopper operation due in fact of the said stated criteria, High and Hot, Volume and Loads.

Hope that puts down the vast theories of why we didn't use our S70A9s. They lacked all types of IR/RW detection gear and ballistic protection due to several programs going off key.

Only recently have they been fitted with such, and only for those operated by 171 Sqn, the SOC helio Sqn with 10 S70A9s at Holsworthy.

The MRH-90 is fitted with such, but is not, again , reached its FOC, either in numbers or in Sqn use.

Below is a actual pic of a USSOC Army MH-60G in support of Aussie Spec Ops in 2010. Check up the specs on her,..engine etc,..and you'll know the difference from the S70A9

Best
Gordy

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Warhawk
  Posted: May 15 2014, 07:29 PM
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A fantastic Quad and rubber boot Entry point,.

plenty of room for Bullets and Beans

A US Army CH-47F 2012 ready to load up TF66 personnel

Note the flare load outs, the RWAS Gear and the model defining canted Engine Exhausts (CH-47D+'s and CH-47Fs)

BTW, Chinooks are in fact faster then any Blackhawk by a wide margin,..go further and can carry more.

Gordy

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F/A-18 Super Bug
  Posted: May 16 2014, 03:56 PM
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First off thanks for the replies and that picture you posted Gordy is majestic I would honestly print and frame that Chook against the star filled night sky.

So the first question that needs to be asked is ADF being properly funded if we can't even get our Tiger ARH Fully Operational Capable after several years of having had her and testing her? So that's a major issue however my mate whose a choco said that they rarely ever do Live Fire Exercises anymore because there isn't money in the budget for it.

QUOTE
"Blackhawks" were mainly Aeromedical evacuation, specifically USAF HH-60Gs and other Allied types. At a stretch, they were used in Command and control.


I guess it's easier to rely on the US Air Force Pararescuemen to provide CASEVACs as they I assume have better resources from pick up to transport to an US/Allied hospital. National Geographic Channel aired a six part documentary series titled Inside Combat Rescue last year and it's amazing the lives they save. I wonder if they send us a bill for that LOL

QUOTE
The Area of operations require a chopper with Hot and dry performance, volume, and load capacity, which the S70A9 was not up to.


So you're basically saying that our Blackhawks aren't up to it in the deserts of Afghanistan even though 20% of Australia is desert (yes I know we're not probably going to be having the Battle of the Simpson Desert anytime soon :P )

QUOTE
Depending on nocturnal and specific operations, some US Spec Ops Command MH-60G/Ms and little bird types were used by our Boys


I see the MH-60M is getting more powerful engines, better avionics and radar. A suite of flight, systems and navigation aids integrated into a digitial glass cockpit made up of multi-function displays. A new-build cabin fuselage and a composite tailcone and horizontal stabiliser.

I guess the Army did a cost/benefit ratio and thought it was cheaper and better to buy the MRH 90 than build under licence new Blackhawks in Australia or rather than upgrading our older fleet of 35. Although minus 10 because you said 10 had been upgraded for our SF boys, I take it this is in the public domain somewhere.

When you say that our Boys used MH-60s or little birds do you mean Australian pilots actually flew these helos on some missions?

QUOTE
Only recently have they been fitted with such, and only for those operated by 171 Sqn, the SOC helio Sqn with 10 S70A9s at Holsworthy.


Thanks for the update seriously ;)

I was just wondering if the Australian Army has ever considered adding refueling probes to any of their helos?

I mean Australian is a very large land mass and obviously it could come in very handy or will the Australian Defense Forces order of 7 CH-47Fs in 2011 come with probes?
Or this "MH-60K operated by the 160th SOAR, This 'kilo' has been fitted with the External Tank System (ETS) , comprising of 2x230 gallon fuel tanks"? That would look cool.

(IMG:http://www.americanspecialops.com/images/aircraft/mh-60l.jpg)

Cheers!! :D
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Warhawk
  Posted: May 17 2014, 07:31 PM
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A quick answer,..

No "Unit" Aussie Pilots "embedded", though one or two may have been on exchange postings at one time or another since 2002. IE: RANFAA SeaKing Pilot in 848 Sqn flying Junglies in Iraq as an example.

The Aussie desert is different,.......no mountains or dunes above 7800 feet in height,..whereas over there,...15000 feet and above sea level. Remember they were bought at a time when "continental defence" was the benchmark. They self deployed with ferry tanks ex Darwin to Timor in 1999. Can carry four,...but in the early days,..cracks came about on the External pylon Brackets( Yes even they had introduction problems,..especially the crewing of them.

Why not the probe? Pointless,...unless we have two requirements,....a Slow Tanker that can refuel them, and a mission profile requirement.

"Battle Field" helio, is just that,..they camp out near the front or area of operation and are only 15-30 mins out. That's why we have chooks,..they run the fuel billets out to a FOB,...(Forward operating Base) for quicker refuelling.

As for budget,.....has to fit in the framed White Paper and current manning (includes the Ladies)requirements for Defence as approved by the elected government of the day.

Even the USAF HH-60G Replacement Requirement was initially won by the CH-47F,..in its HH-47H model, to replace them,..then the contract was cancelled.

They have the 50 or so CV-22 Tilt Rotor Aircraft for "special" SOC and CAR(Combat Search and Rescue of downed Aircrew) which can be used. Faster, longer ranging and carrying capacity. But to replace the 100 or so HH-60Gs,.....they're getting 15 replacements ex New US Army Contracted UH-60Ms and perhaps will recapitalise the remaining survivors.

I sense your eagerness on several subjects, but sometimes you must get a background first on the actual needs and the nation's budget reality.

The Past Government gutted the defence budget to try and attain a mythical "surplus". Gone went the Self propelled 155mm Guns, New Automatic Grenade Launchers, the ability to manufacture our large calibre ammunitions, and other all numerous projects that the ADF requested, approved and had budgeted for.

Not to mention the early retirements or storage of types from 4WDs to M1A1s,..or just plain deferring or "re-aligning" of delivery dates such as MRH-90s or AWDs.

As for sourcing,..ala public domain,..its out there,..though I do have some insight from other not so public, but rather in some ways, one might say "personal " experience. The Chook pic is a personal pic as exampled.

That's all I will and can say on that subject other then one more thing.......


For what the ADF have done over the last 15 years, has been exemplary and if there were issues regarding equipment or support issues in the war on terrorism, they were ironed out or at least minimised.


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Grumpy Cobra
Posted: May 18 2014, 12:45 AM
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Its all a matter of perspective chaps - if war comes to our mainland or we need to mess about with our neighbor's they will be deployed :D and have been deployed - East Timor and the Fiji banana crisis spring to mind :blink:
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F/A-18 Super Bug
Posted: May 18 2014, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE
Why not the probe? Pointless,...unless we have two requirements,....a Slow Tanker that can refuel them, and a mission profile requirement.


Are you saying that RAAFs only refueler the Airbus A330 MRTT can't slow down far enough without stalling to air-to-air refuel our different helos? If that's the case then we could possibly convert a CH-47F or 2 because they can do air-to-air refueling for our helos.

Chinook air-to-air refueling

QUOTE
No "Unit" Aussie Pilots "embedded", though one or two may have been on exchange postings at one time or another since 2002. IE: RANFAA SeaKing Pilot in 848 Sqn flying Junglies in Iraq as an example.


RAAF pilot flies the F-22 Raptor

Besides keeping up good diplomatic relations I really don't know why one of our TOPGUN :P pilots is flying a F-22. An aircraft that a lot about it is still classified and banned by US Congress for Foreign Export.

QUOTE
Even the USAF HH-60G Replacement Requirement was initially won by the CH-47F,..in its HH-47H model, to replace them,..then the contract was cancelled.


Do you know why it was cancelled?

QUOTE
Gone went the Self propelled 155mm Guns, New Automatic Grenade Launchers, the ability to manufacture our large calibre ammunitions, and other all numerous projects that the ADF requested, approved and had budgeted for.


Being an Armchair General isn't artillery a redundant weapon on the battlefield these days as with the different surface-to-surface missiles and rocket weapons systems. For example the M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System and the MGM-140 Army Tactical Missile System.

With the New Auto Grenade Launchers are you talking about the Mk19, also what's wrong with our large caliber ammunition? I really need to read up on current issues somewhere, I just saw you can download the Army Newspaper off the DoD website.

QUOTE
Not to mention the early retirements or storage of types from 4WDs to M1A1s,..or just plain deferring or "re-aligning" of delivery dates such as MRH-90s or AWDs.


I feel sorry for the servicemen and women of the 1st Armoured Regiment has all they do is take out the Abrams for a test drive every now and again. Then spend the next week cleaning all the red dust off them. :D However with our new LHDs they might see a little more action.

QUOTE
For what the ADF have done over the last 15 years, has been exemplary and if there were issues regarding equipment or support issues in the war on terrorism, they were ironed out or at least minimised.


Well said B)
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