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> What If... Essex Class Carrier For Australia?, Real Aircraft Carrier for RAN.
Brugal
Posted: Mar 9 2017, 03:41 AM
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Some weeks ago by coincidense a talk on FB about RAAF Phantoms, it seems that RAN at one point did received a possible offer for the transfer of a Essex Class Aircraft Carrier from US in 1960's! It seems that a Air Wing could consist of F-4J, Trackers and E-1 Tracers AEW. A well informed source said it could have been the CV-47 USS Philippine Sea, but not sure. I thought that the deck of this particular Carrier was not fit for F-4 operations... but could handle the A-4 Skyhawk (and F-8 Crusaders). Any one with more about this piece of interesting history?

Thanks.

This post has been edited by Brugal on Mar 9 2017, 05:42 AM
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Shep
Posted: Mar 9 2017, 05:32 AM
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Back in the 1980’s, I heard a similar, though not as detailed story. My source at the time, a fellow RAAFie, but not one I’d have considered well informed, mentioned in conversation (down the boozer – I might add) that an Essex Class vessel and associated F-8’s had been offered at one time.

Might be one of those stories like carefully buried, pristine, Spitfires, etc, etc …

Cheers!
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Brugal
Posted: Mar 9 2017, 05:40 AM
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So... I hope more will come available from documents and sure some historians here have more details to share.



Cheers.

This post has been edited by Brugal on Mar 9 2017, 05:43 AM
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Luig
Posted: Mar 9 2017, 09:44 AM
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Challenges Challenges. First the 1960s and 1980s are a long way apart so let us start with the 1960s.... Some background is appropriate and these are generalisations. In early 1960s it was decided to make HMAS Melbourne an ASW Helicopter Carrier with fixed wing disappearing (Gannets & Sea Venoms). However the Indonesian Confrontation saw the RAN change conops to Fixed Wing again (with specialisation in ASW) with Skyhawks as Fleet Defenders with Trackers and Helo ASW main component. The A4Gs were to defend against Indonesian Badgers with anti-ship Kennel missiles, along with the recon aircraft that might look for the fleet from afar (which would realistically be the main targets). This aspect was a copy of the USN ASW carriers of the mid 1960s (with A-4B/Cs as Fleet Defenders of S-2 ASW carriers). There were few options for the 'fleet defender' so the A-4F converted to A4G won the day with the demonstration of an USN A-4B landing/catapult onboard HMAS Melbourne in 1965.

Whilst this was in progress the USofA an Oriskany Class Aircraft Carrier to replace MELBOURNE and have perhaps different fighters than Skyhawk. Whilst a little while later when HMS Hermes was in Australian waters and our A4G/S2E carried out their first deck landings, this carrier was offered by the UK. A few years later the same offer for HMS Eagle was made - with no go.

Later in all the kerfuffle when HMS Invincible was going to be transferred to the RAN in early 1980s, and then it was not, the UK again offered HERMES without effect. Probably the US offered a parked aircraft carrier at that time but again....

Usually apart from the material condition of these 'obsolete' carriers the cost of extra personnel to man them was prohibitive - then new aircraft and it all became too hard, so that is why history panned out the way it did. It must be emphasised the USN ex-carriers were in very bad shape with a lot of money needed to get them in working order again - then add on upgrades etc.

I realise perhaps that a 4.4Gb PDF about RAN FAA & A4Gs along with the other aircraft and Naval Aviation material about 'how to deck land' is not interesting for a lot of people. However this now 12,200+ page PDF does have a lot of historical material about the shenanigans to do with RAN aircraft carriers. I could excerpt this particular material again but no one downloads it so for me it is a waste of effort when the same pages are in the aforementioned PDF. These PDFs can be 'text searched' with bookmarks for main sections so it is easy to find what one looks for in this regard. Look for 'SpazSinbad' page on OneDrive or GoogleDrive respectively and ensure that one registers for free with these entities to allow viewing or downloading of material. THIS JUMP OFF page is probably the best because it has instructions (also on download pages follow those instructions or you will be punked).

http://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/

This post has been edited by Luig on Mar 9 2017, 09:52 AM
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Shep
Posted: Mar 9 2017, 10:02 AM
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So ... seems there is some documentary evidence to build the story from.

The "Kendrew Report".

See: RAN Proposal for a Replacement Aircraft Carrier and Fixed Wing Aircraft; NAA: A1945, 244/3/64. Especially pages 6 to 63 (the report), pages 181 and 182 and pages 235 to 238.

The Kendrew Report came out in July, 1964. I've only skimmed the above file, but the gist of the report included the claim that an ORISKANY Class vessel, suitably modernised and equipped with an air group of 16 fighter/strike aircraft, 12 fixed wing ASW, 4 fixed wing AEW, 16 rotary wing ASW and 2 rotary wing SAR could be operational by 1969.

Associated works, manpower additions, etc were included. Total requirement was stated as being 28 F-4B Phantom, 24 Trackers and 8 Tracers.

It was claimed in the Report that F-4B aircraft could operate from an ORISKANY 27C Class vessel. F-8E's and F-3 Demon's were rejected on account of lack of role suitability and being replaced by F-4's.

It was later pointed out that a strike loaded F-4B could NOT in fact operate at the weights and ambient conditions as stipulated by the RAN (MAUW, 0 wind, 90 deg F), but certain modification could make it more feasible, including drooping ailerons on the F-4 (that was one of the improvements incorporated in the "J" wasn't it?).

Anyway Brugal, you can now read it for yourself on-line from the NAA.
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Luig
Posted: Mar 9 2017, 01:27 PM
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This is a direct link to cover page then subsequent pages of above title:

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetr....aspx?B=1565492

The 'history' PDF I have been making over many years has references to all kinds of reports and pages from same. IIRC the Oriskany was in bad shape taking a huge effort and money to fix, especially to operate these larger aircraft. Does this mentioned report get into that? And thanks for the link to this report. Needless to say bits will be in the PDF. Here on page 14 is the Indonesian Badger range:

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetr...565492&S=13&R=0

This post has been edited by Luig on Mar 9 2017, 02:06 PM

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Luig
Posted: Mar 9 2017, 02:14 PM
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Is 'Shep' NEW GOLCONDA HERE?:

RAN Oriskany/CVA-01 staff paper costing, etc

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/...tc#.WMDWOIVOJn0

I am 'SpazSinbad' :-)

THEN a salutary tale about ORISKANY condition & PCBs from above URL:

"Looking for a reference online to the ORISKANY being offered to the RAN again in 1984 came across reference to sinking of same with reference to the level of PCBs in this aircraft carrier:"

Sinking Ships By William Mathews

http://navyleague.org.au/wp-content/upload...-Navy-V75N2.pdf

This post has been edited by Luig on Mar 9 2017, 02:41 PM
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Brugal
Posted: Mar 9 2017, 04:55 PM
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Wow guys... thank you both, amazing find. I truly love those documents and stories. Thanks Luig for your time and efforts (again) to type down this story. I try to imagine that ship with F-4B and Tracers (E-1B). Would be nice to see some drawings of F-4B and Tracers in RAN colours.
Great work guys.

Cheers

This post has been edited by Brugal on Mar 9 2017, 09:42 PM
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Shep
Posted: Mar 9 2017, 05:56 PM
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WTF?

I spent 30 minutes looking for some information for “Brugal” and submit the information about the “Kendrew Report”. Something the he could very easily have done himself, but didn’t. I have no particular knowledge on the subject and have zero interest in it. I was only trying to help.

Then you, Luig, come out with “Is 'Shep' NEW GOLCONDA HERE?” What is that?

If I was interested, I’d be waiting with great anticipation for your next regurgitation of some glossy American advertising/propaganda or your next post (it’s been awhile), swooning over the possibility of the RAN operating a twin fin Yak-38.

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Luig
Posted: Mar 9 2017, 08:23 PM
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I do not know your problem however IF you - 'Shep' - followed the link provided he would see that 'New Golconda' provided the same information on the NavWeaps forum in the Aircraft Carrier section so I was curious. So now I know: 'Shep' is NOT 'New Golconda' NOR is he interested in the topic.

Now I'm supposed to be interested in twin fin Yak-38s. What are you smoking?
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Ron Cuskelly
Posted: Mar 10 2017, 10:00 AM
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All this talk of carriers reminded me of this gem.

And then came the Falklands ...


(IMG:http://www.adastron.com/aviation/vault/HMS-Invincible.jpg)
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Luig
Posted: Mar 10 2017, 01:49 PM
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I'm pleased I was not in the RAN Fleet Air Arm in the early 1980s when dirty deeds were done dirt cheap. This Navy News cartoon reminds me of my earlier era (& to hell with crabs - birdies rule).

This post has been edited by Luig on Mar 10 2017, 01:51 PM

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