Katoomba Cat?, Anyone know the ID of the Catalina

Anyone know the RAAF or USN identity of the Cat used as a tourist attraction at Katoomba in the 1950's?

It sat in a man made lake and amusement park later known as Catalina Park, and later was the site of the Catalina Park Raceway?

I assume it was recovered from Sydney? or Rathmines? post war?

The photo clearly shows the aircraft to be a PBY-5 Flying boat, narrowing the RAAF choices down A24-1 to A24-68 less those easily accounted for by wartime loss or disposal well away from NSW?

Regards

Mark Pilkington

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Mark,

The Katoomba Catalina is an unexplained mystery.
It is a PB2B-1.
A24-205 is without explanation as to its fate, so I suggest that as its RAAF identity.

Cheers, Wynnum.

<!--Quote Wynnum

Mark,

The Katoomba Catalina is an unexplained mystery.
It is a PB2B-1.
A24-205 is without explanation as to its fate, so I suggest that as its RAAF identity.

Cheers, Wynnum. !--QuoteEEnd-->


Wynnum,

The PB2B's were pure flying boats, often fitted with the large radar pod over the cockpit similar to the Katoomba Cat, but the PB2B has the "tall" tail that is retained on the later PBY-6A as per the HARS example.

I dont think it is a PB2B as the Katoomba Cat seems to clearly have the smaller "round" tail from the earlier PBY-4, PBY-5 and PBY-5A variants, it also clearly has the large radar pod still fitted, but has no amphibious mainwheels visable of the PBY-5A, suggesting it is either a PBY-5 flying boat or PBY-5A(M) modified flying boat?

I am not sure many of the PBY-5's were ever fitted with Radar due to range and performance limitations so I suspect it may be a former RAAF PBY-5A(M) one of the 29 such aircraft converted by the RAAF from the 46 Amphibian PBY-5A's delivered as A24-69 to A24-114, the remaining "intact" PBY-5A amphibian's tended to be used as Air Sea Rescue aircraft, and were probably not fitted with ASV either?

However it is possible that ASV was fitted to a PBY-5 for training purposes, as many of the early PBY-5's were relegated to OTU's etc as the PBY-5A's arrived.

While most RAAF Catalina's fitted with the radar pod appear from photos to have been the late model PB2B's delivered very late in the war, it seems some of the earlier RAAF Cats (PBY-5, PBY-5A's and 5A(M)'s?) were fitted with the ASV pods as shown by the unidentified "Black Cat" with a smaller "round" tail on page 47 of Stewart Wilson's "Catalina, Neptune and Orion".

There is an assumption by some people that the PB2B's with their ASV Radar were used as the RAAF's operational "Black Cats".

However many "Black Cat" mining missions had occured from 1943 onwards, long before the arrival of the PB2B's, (which commenced arriving in late 1944 with the last delivered in Sept 1945) with many missions continuing to be being undertaken by the PBY-5A(M)'s through to the end of the war in 1945.

With their late delivery in the war, I am not sure many of the PB2B's actually saw any "combat" service at all, with most being delivered in 1945 when mining missions by the RAAF were significantly diminished.

The PBY-5A(M) Flying Boats undertook many of the long distance 1944 Black Cat missions as the front moved away from Australia, they were created from modified PBY-5A Amphibians, with their improved engines over the earlier PBY-5's, and their increased range and payload due to the reduction of weight and drag through local removal of amphibious undercarriage and modification back to pure flying boats. Most of these Black Cat mining missions had 1 ASV aircraft along for protection (often from the USN which also provided additional mining Black Cats into the mission), but the ASV aircraft wasn't neccessarily armed with mines.



Regards

Mark Pilkington

This post has been edited by mark_pilkington on Jul 18 2008, 08:23 PM

Mark,

The Katoomba Catalina was a PB2B-1.

The RAAF received 7 PB2B-1, A24-200 to A24-206. These had the "short" vertical tail, as distinct from the "tall" tail.

ALL PB2B-1 had the "short" tail.
ALL PB2B-2 had the "tall" tail.
-----------oOo--------------

All RAAF Catalinas had radar.
There are different types of radars.
ALL the RAAF Catalinas from Boeing of Canada, 7 PB2B-1 and 47 PB2B-2 had the radar antenna above the cockpit in the aerodynamic pod.

NO OTHER RAAF Catalinas had such above cockpit aerodynamic radar antenna pod.

Cheers, Wynnum.

Wynnum,

thanks for that, "you learn something new every day" smiles, I wasnt aware of that distinction with the PB2B-1 tail as compared to the PB2B-2, I thought all of the PB2B production had adopted the USN's new tail design?

So that does seem to confirm it down to just 7 airframes, and likely the unresolved A24-205 is the specific identity.

Thanks for your research, and your more recent clarification

I wonder if a brief story & photo of the Katoomba Cat shouldnt be added to the A24-205 entry as a possible identification, as even the existance of the Katoomba Cat seems to be poorly documented online and its not mentioned at all in the Stewart Wilson Catalina book.

regards

Mark Pilkington

This post has been edited by mark_pilkington on Jul 23 2008, 08:05 AM

Mark,
I have to rule out my suggestion that the Katoomba Catalina may have been A24-205 - after several days studying a multitude of sources, I find no record whatsoever of it returning to Rathmines or Lake Boga after it was damaged in Darwin. No record of it having been sold through disposals.

That leaves only A24-202, which was sold to Butler Air Transport - they did not operate Catalinas, but used the engines - put simply, Butler bought A24-202 for the engines, and didn't need the airframe.

All the other five PB2B-1 are easily ruled out, their history is clear.

Cheers, Wynnum.

Wynnum,

After your advice of the PB2B-1 possibility I had been studying their fates in Stewart Wilson's book and would agree A24-202 is a strong possibility, even without its engines.

A second look at the photo hyperlinked above shows the engine cowls strangely blanked in at the front, perhaps hiding the lack of engines? and while props are in place, their presence may reflect mockup props or originals hung on internal mounting frames fitted into the engine mounts, rather than neccessarily mounted on engines?

It is a pity more close up photos have not surfaced showing close ups of the aircraft, to view engines, or any original markings left in place, (you would have imagined visitors taking pictures of the aircraft?), although the aircraft obviously has lost any "black cat" markings it may have had?, and its hard to tell if its in a silver, or bare metal finish?

I still wonder if this photo and the story of the Katoomba Cat should be added to the A24- list to encourage more info to surface?

Regards

Mark Pilkington

Resurrecting an old post to see if there is anything to add.

Wynnum Graham was our original Catalina page author.
Starting in July 2002 Wynnum regularly contributed until sadly he passed away in 2010.

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I'll bite with a light entry

Per disposals ex Rathmines sans equipment and instruments in 1952,..our choices. Includes some PB2B-1s A24-200 and A24-201

If I remember right, I thought that ADF-Serials, through a forum, ID this airframe??????

Gordy
Cat Hater,......furry kind


:blink:

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Then came the actual sale,..way less value gained

Gordy

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Exactly Gordy, that is this thread I resurrected.
A24-202 was offered as a "strong possibility"
I was wondering if any new information had come forward the six years since the last post.

More to your discussion on Catalinas I have a photo that my father took - have no history myself . maybe some one can ident the background - It looks like a PB2B-2

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Thanks Grumpie,
That's the one, background is very similar to that shown in photo above.

It appears that Mr Horace C. Gates purchased two Catalinas in 1948.
Obviously this was one of them, I wonder which the other was and what happened to it?
More pictures at
http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/Catalina-Katoomba

UPDATE 27-01-2017: " The below comments are in Err,..Only PB2B2/PB2B2R and PBY6 have long tails: "


Me thinks PB2B-1 or PBY-5A(M) by the vertical Stabiliser height/rudder and Radar Pod

Not a tall fin PB2B-2 as shown below,..note height of tail

Refer example per actual pic of PB2B-1 A24-201

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/Catalina/P951422

"PB2B-1 Catalina A24-201/RB-K loaded with aerial mines taking-off, 20 Squadron, Brunei Bay, June, 1945. via Mike Mirkovic"

Replacement pic is of A24-205, a True PB2B1

If we check out the date of Butler's demise and sell off,..we may get a lead

Ciao

Gordy

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What was Horrie Gates's link to Butler Aviation?

Did Horace C. Gates purchase a Catalina from the Commonwealth Disposals or from a 3rd party?

The previous posts seem to imply that he purchased one from Butler Air Transport.

Did Horace C. Gates purchase a Catalina from the Commonwealth Disposals or from a 3rd party?

The previous posts seem to imply that he purchased one from Butler Air Transport.

From the posts above you could surmise Horrie purchased air frames A24 201 and A24 202 from Butler Aviation who bought them from RAAF disposals, presumably for the engines for their own fleet. Again with the evidence and theories provided above, would A24 201 be the most likely candidate as the Catalina Park Katoomba warbird since it was a 'short tail' model and A24 202 was a 'tall tale' variant ??

Have to say my earlier comment saying its a PB2B2 Tall tail is wrong,..definitely a PB2B1, last of the Short tails,....at Catalina Park.

Its either A24 201 and A24 200

If its A24-201,..what a missed chance to save for AWM,..one of four that participated in the RAAF's most northern penetration of occupied Japanese Territory!!


Only PB2B2's and PBY-6s were long tails

PB2B1s had the PB2B2's radar,..
Gordy

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Another photo found on the BATRAC Facebook page by our friend The Phantom

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Catalina was a PB2B-1 with serial A24-202.

Butler Air Transport purchased 3 surplus Catalinas: A24-202, A24-362 and A24-376. However they were only interested in the engines and other reusable parts. The stripped Catalinas were then sold at auction to John Cain who used them (plus another Catalina A24-355) as floating guest accommodation for his Stoney Creek holiday park, near Toronto NSW.

You can read about John Cain and his holiday park in this newspaper article: http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2645913/...light-of-fancy/

A storm flooded the holiday park which lead to its demise around 1950.

However, prior to the storm one of the Stoney Creek holiday park Catalinas, A24-202, was acquired in 1948 by Horace Gates for his own amusement park at Katoomba Lake in the Blue Mountains.

You can read more about Katoomba Lake here: http://bmlocalstudies.blogspot.com.au/2010...k-katoomba.html

After the Katoomba Lake amusement park's demise the council purchased the land in 1952. A24-202 was removed from the lake during 1954 and was subsequently sold to Sheffield Welding & Engineering of Auburn, NSW in 1958 after which it was dismantled on site and scrapped.

Acknowledgements: David Legg, Geoff Goodall, The Newcastle Herald, John Merriman.

This post has been edited by Blackcat on Aug 24 2017, 12:07 AM