Navy Vengeances & Spitfires, Confirming the details

Hi All,

It occured to me when I last updated the RAN page http://www.adf-serials.com.au/ran.htm that we are missing the Vengeances & Spitfires that were used from 1948 onwards as Deck Handling Training Aids before ending up on the Nowra Fire Dump.

I have a list of the Vengeance serial numbers at home which I will add to this post when I have it in front of me.

My (probably incomplete) listing of the Spitfires involved were:

A58-673, 686, 691, 698, 700, 733, 736, 745, 748, 750, 752, 753, 754.

My questions are:

1) Have I missed any Spits? 13 Strikes me as an odd number - even though I was born on a Friday 13th myself!

2) Does anyone have any photos?

I had an old edition of the AHSA Journal from many decades ago that I can't find now, but I recall that there was a complete serial listing and some photos of the Spitfires taxiing around in what appeared to be an overall dark paint scheme (if my memory serves me rightly).

I'm thinking of throwing the information on to a page each for the types in their short lived and ground based Navy service before the Sea Fury and Firefly became available.

Thanks

BC

Brendan, you are right, 13 is an odd number (despite your birthday), I have 14.

Now while the list I have (from the Nowra museum when it was called AMOF) varies alittle from your Mk VIII list, it does provide the sole Mk.V - A58-211.

I also have some good pics from the same source.

I will attempt to post.

First the list of numbers and hand over dates.

Hmmm, I could not post the image of my list from the AMOF.

However, the numbers are:

A58-211.
A58-673, 686, 698, 700, 733, 734, 736, 745, 748, 750, 752, 753, 754.
So the difference in Mk.VIIIs are:
No 691, add 734.

I have nice pics of 211, and a Mk.VIII numbered "AH4", labelled as "1951" - but I really think that is too late as all aircraft were transferred to the RAN in OCT 1948, and by the time they received Furys and Fireflies there was no need for the Spits.


Will try again with a smaller image...

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OK, now I have cracked that.

I will reduce several image sizes and post.

Spit V A58-211 - note 3-coloured roundel, probably unique for a Spit V.

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Now the Mk.VIII numbered AH4. Clearly "Aircraft Handling", but I don't have a tie-up of the AH- numbers.



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Thanks Batman,

You've come up trumps again.

I'll re-check my sources regarding A58-691 & 734.

Interesting photos. I hadn't seen the second last one with all the grafitti on the wings.

:D

Brendan

Here is another.
The Mk.VIII being marshalled appears to have a "AH" number on the side.
The Mk.VIII in the left of the pic is nice dark gloss colour with side number "810" applied.

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Jackpot!

That's one of the photos from my missing AHSA Journal!

:D

I don't think I've ever seen a shot of the Vengeances used for the same purpose.

:rolleyes:

BC

To come back to the Vengeances, I have 12 listed as free transfer from RAAF stocks to the RAN (primarily for Fire Fighting Training):

02 March 1949: A27-402, 403, 404 & 563

05 February 1951: A27-530

06 February 1951: A27-4

27 February 1951: A27-9

15 March 1951: A27-14, 506, & 526

01 May 1951: A27-617

11 March 1951: A27-600

I have never seen any photographic record of these airframes after transfer to the RAN, and given their role as fire training aids, this is not perhaps suprising.

Their condition on on transfer has been described by Peter.C.Smith in "Vengeance! The Vultee Vengeance Dive Bomber" as "hulks".

If anyone has any further information on these airframes, it would be very much appreciated.

Thanks

Brendan

Spitties buried under NAS Nowra Airfield? UhOH!? :o :D Thanks for all that info 'batman'. Next we will see 'gph' at Nowra with a digger with maybe a ground penetrating radar attached (just to save time/money). B)

They were burned (and probably bashed) before they were buried.

There wouldn't be much left of them I suspect!

:(

BC

Never is, after the Navy is finished with 'em. :P

I thought we couldn't stay "purple" forever!

;)

BC

Back to the Spitfires.

It looks like they were both transferred to the RAN making a total of 15!

My sources are the good old E/E.88 status cards. :P

Also, I note that the FAA Association quotes a figure of 15.

http://www.faaaa.asn.au/pictures/aircraft/spitfire.htm

So we are both right Batman! (Does that make me Boy Wonder?) :blink:

1 x Mk.Vc & 14 x MK.VIII

Brendan

In the last photo above a tower with fuel bowser can be seen on the left. Similarly the tower I believe can be seen in this photo from early days of NAS Nowra and the Deck of Dummies. I regret I never actually set foot on it. In the early 1970s it was a car park or filled with obsolete aircraft temporarily. It was seen in the distance from the main gate and I never ventured there sadly. :-(

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Overview Pic.

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You blokes haven't check our own ADF-Serials 2A58 and 2A27 records have you? Answers are there,..and I mean all there.


Save A58-211,(Not reached yet) the rest are recorded and covered in all 2A58 and 2A27 Listings,...including the RANFAA and RNFAA

A58-211 Mk.Vc LZ834 RAN /QY-C/ RAN Delivered to 1 AP 07/07/43. To 1 AD 13/07/43. To 1 FW 15/07/43. To 452 Sqn 18/07/43. To 14 ARD 24/09/43 for modification. To 452 Sqn 30/09/43. Crashed Strauss Strip 02/10/43. To 7 RSU 03/10/43. To 457 Sqn 22/12/43. To 6 AD 04/08/44 for repair and overhaul. To 85 Sqn 23/08/45. To 6 AD 08/10/45 for storage. To 2 AD for Storage 26/02/46. Issued to RAN 06/10/48, but believe it arrived at Nowra on 07/10/48. The Seafire's were taxi'ed around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. Theyr were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-673 HF.VIII MV468 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 28/11/44. A/c renumbered A58-series 09/12/44. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 12/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-686 HF.VIII MV487 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 26/12/44. A/c renumbered A58-series 27/12/44. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 20/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-691 HF.VIII MV510 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 26/12/44. A/c renumbered A58-series 27/12/44. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 12/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-698 HF.VIII MV509 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 26/12/44. A/c renumbered A58-series 27/12/44. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 14/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-700 HF.VIII MV512 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 26/12/44. A/c renumbered A58-series 27/12/44. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 12/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-733 HF.VIII MT914 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 10/04/45. A/c renumbered A58-series 11/04/45. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 25/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-734 HF.VIII MV181 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 28/04/45. A/c renumbered A58-series 20/04/45. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 25/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-736 HF.VIII MV186 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 28/04/45. A/c renumbered A58-series 23/04/45. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 25/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-745 HF.VIII MV206 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 28/04/45. A/c renumbered A58-series 23/04/45. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 27/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-748 HF.VIII MV344 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 28/04/45. A/c renumbered A58-series 23/04/45. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 14/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-750 HF.VIII MV188 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 11/05/45. A/c renumbered A58-series 17/05/45. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 20/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-752 HF.VIII MV203 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 14/05/45. A/c renumbered A58-series 17/05/45. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 27/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-753 HF.VIII MV204 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 14/05/45. A/c renumbered A58-series 17/05/45. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 20/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.
A58-754 HF.VIII MV207 RAN Rec 2AD ex UK 11/05/45. A/c renumbered A58-series 17/05/45. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 25/10/48. The Seafire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.


Vengeaces

RNFAA issued, A27-502/520/529/539/545/547/549/619/625, with another 17 allocated, but not transferred;
A27-401/509/511/512/513/514/515/516/529/540/542/543/546/548/564/612 and 614) to Royal Navy ex 1AD 07/10/45.ones.

And here's a pre RAAF pic of A27-402 in USA

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Just to add a post RAAF RNFAA Vengeance in Schofields 1946

Gordy :o

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706Sqn RNFAA Scholfields NSW

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And a 1947 Pic of a 721 Sqn Kai Tak

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I haven't any post RAAF RAN FAA pics it seems,..shame eh

Best
Gordy

"...They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground...."

No magic Spitfire Burial Ground then. :-(

Damn, I was just polishing up the Ground Penetrating Radar thingy. :(

Amazing pics of the old "Dummy Deck" which became a motorsport club "Skid Pan" for a while in the 70s.

Hey Gordy, just 'cause RAAF gives RAN some A58s, doesn't make them "Seafires" !! And how about the A65s - "Sea Dakotas" I guess?? :P

And the RAN Vampires were never 'Sea Vampires' (a whole different beast with a hook and only a few made in UK). Mebbe we had Sea Macchis? :o :P

Luig,

Remember the Vampire T.22s, the RN numbered ones - not the T.34/As A79 ones.
Were they "Sea Vampires"?

This post has been edited by batman on Apr 6 2012, 07:06 PM

Some online or book sources may have referred erroneously to RAN 'Sea' Vampires but if one looks at the Vampire history there are only a few 'Sea Vampires' made specifically for deck landing trials and such like. The first Jet Deck Landing was via a 'Sea Vampire' with the all time record deck lander Eric 'Winkle' Brown at the controls.

I have seen lots of references to various RAN Vampire types. Books and online sources are one way to work it out. From my memory we referred to the old clunkers (each aircraft slightly different in small but meaningful ways regarding the instrument/control layouts) as 'T.11s' (UK built?) whilst the other more numerous at 'end of service RAN Vampires' were all the same in that regard. I'll have to go check now for what we called 'em. 'Vampires' mostly. :-)

It was a shock to step into a T.11 straight from the RAAF Vamps at RAAF Pearce. WTF? Nothing was were it should have been and then stepping into another T.11 brought on more confusion. Thank goodness they disappeared early on in 1969 to have only the more standard Oz-built version. However these differed from RAAF version due to hand brake control on control stick, with also air pressure from engine providing braking power. However the same issue of quickly running out of pressure was even worse than that experienced in the RAAF version. The control stick brake handle had a preference to stick at the closed (full ON position) which was wonderful during a landing! :-) So one quickly learnt how to NOT go to far into the squeeze. Light braking always good anyways.

This post has been edited by Luig on Apr 6 2012, 07:25 PM

Fascinating stuff gents! Excellent!

I'll concede that if people want to refer to the RAN Vampires as 'Sea Vampires' then fair enough. However I distinctly remember that at that time (their last several years at NAS Nowra 1969-70) they were not referred to as such and anyone doing so was discouraged (an euphemism). :-)

Also T.11 it seems was the RAF version of the T.22 RN 'Sea Vampire' version. However we referred to these older RAN Vampire models as 'T.11s' and they certainly were a 'mix 'n match' bunch; but soon out of the picture in those last years, leaving the T.35s which were more or less the same. Vampires were rotated in and out of storage overnight to maintain the number required on squadron for Fleet Support and continuation training for newly arrived RAAF trained pilots.

A few initial Macchi course RAN pilots had to be converted to the RAN Vampire at NAS Nowra before the Macchis arrived late in 1970. I think that requirement also meant that standardising on the T.35 as much as practicable made the transition easier for them; although I do recall their remarks about the older models. "WTF"! :-)

Haha, I can just imagine!! It's great reading your impressions at the time.

Definitely the T.11 was the RAF version, and that was what our T.33 and T.35 were modelled off, as was the RAN T.34. (T.33s later modded to T.35A and T.34 to T.34A.)

The RN T.22 is referred to in books as the 'Sea Vampire'.
Those old clunkers at Albatross (XA101, 167; XG766, 770, 773) came from the RN T.22 production runs: XA100-XA172 and XG742-XG777. (From "British Military Aircraft Serials 1878-1987", Bruce Robertson, and referred to as the 'Sea Vampire T.22'.)
Putnam's "De Havilland Aircraft since 1909" by Jackson also calls the T.22 the 'Sea Vampire'.

While the RN used them primarily as trainers of course, they also became comms aircraft and "Admiral's barges". No mention of a hook on the T.22, but as you observe they differed from the Oz-builts "in small but meaningful ways regarding the instrument/control layouts". Agree, must have been a nightmare for the new arrivals from AFTS - not to mention the guys converting from Macchis.

Who said Sea Fire? I didn't :blink:

Back with Vengeance!!!Bad pun

Serial FY Serial RAF# Maker Model Unit/Marking History
A27-4 BPC AN856 Northrop A31 (V72) RAN /2OTU/1APU/5CU/RANFAA Rec ex USA 30/05/42 to 2AP for errection.First Vengeance to be test flown in Australia on 24/06/42.Rec 2OTU 10/08/42. Eng modification 2AD 30/09/42. Not serviceable for an extended time till 30/07/43 when rec at SDF. Rec at 1APU for gun camera installation and tests 18/01/44.Rec at SHQ Flight Laverton for Target towing duties on 16/06/44. 15/10/44 rec at 5 Comm Unit. 18/10/45 to 7OTU, then to 7AD for storage 05/12/45. Approved for disposal 10/04/46. 01/11/50 issued to RANFAA. Departed to RANFAA to Nowra 005/02/51 for firefighting.

A27-9 BPC AN876 Northrop A31 (V72) RAN /2OTU/12Sqn/7OTU/RANFAA Rec ex USA to 3AD 27/07/42. Rec 2OTU 14/09/42. 25/09/42 rec at 1AD for modifications.Rec 12Sqn 16/11/42. 02/05/43 rec at 2AD.Rec 12/01/44 at 4OTU. Rec 1AD 03/02/44. Rec 7OTU 10/05/44.Rec 7AD for storage and disposal 4/12/45.Approved for disposal 10/04/46. 06/11/50 issued to RANFAA. Departed to RANFAA to Nowra 26/02/51 for firefighting.

A27-14 BPC AN897 Northrop A31 (V72) RAN Rec 3AD ex USA 27/07/42. Erection 3AD 31/07/42. Allocated 2OTU ex 3AD 01/09/42. Rec 2OTU ex 3AD 07/09/42. Allocated 12Sqn RAAF ex 2OTU 27/09/42. Rec 1AD for W/T fitting prior to 12Sqn RAAF 28/09/42. Rec 12 Sqn RAAF ex 1AD 16/11/42. Rec 2AD ex 12 Sqn RAAF 28/06/43. Allocated to be modified as Target Towing Aircraft. Rec 1AD ex 2AD 04/02/44. Issued 3 Comm Unit ex 1AD 24/03/44. Rec 7OTU ex 3CU 06/08/44. Issued 7AD ex 7OTU 03/12/45. Approved to be stored Cat E 22/03/46. Held Det B 1AD Tocumwal 11/07/49. Approved allocation to RAN 05/11/50. Issued to Dept of Navy 01/05/51.


A27-402 41-31235 FD106 Vultee A-35A-VN RAN Rec 2AD ex USA 12/07/43. Deemed not suitable for operations. Airscrew and cowls issued to 3CU to be fitted to A27-405 15/02/44. Issued and rec 2AD Storage ex 2AD 03/11/44. Rec 2AD storage ex 2AD 22/06/45. Issued 2CRD ex 2AD Storage 28/11/45. To be stored insitu 22/05/46. Rec 2AD ex 2CRD 05/06/46. Stored Cat E 01/10/46. Approved for free issue to Royal Australian Navy 27/04/48. Issued to RAN 02/03/49. Picture held A35 41-31235 Source USAFM

A27-403 41-31237 FD108 Vultee A-35A-VN RAN Rec 2AD ex USA 12/07/43. Deemed not suitable for operations. Issued and rec 2AD Storage ex 2AD 30/11/44. Issued 2CRD ex 2AD Storage 28/11/45. To be stored insitu 22/05/46. Rec 2AD ex 2CRD 05/06/46. Stored Cat E 01/10/46. Approved for free issue to Royal Australian Navy 27/04/48. Issued to RAN 02/03/49.

A27-404 41-31238 FD109 Vultee A-35A-VN RAN Rec 2AD ex USA 12/07/43. Rec 1AD ex 2AD 23/07/43. Issued 4 Communications Unit ex 1AD 23/01/44. Accident 1115hrs 22/01/44 when aircraft was forced landed in a wheat field due to falling oil pressure at Culcairn on a ferry flight from Laverton to Archerfield, during Forrest Hil Leg. Crew; Pilot, F/O J F Rumbold Serv#408704 and Navigator (W) F/O D T Brown both of 1AD were un-injured. Rec 5AD ex 1AD 30/01/44. Rec 4CU ex 5AD 24/02/44. Issued 3CU ex 4CU 07/07/44. Accident 11/07/44 at Mascot Aerodrome when aircraft whilst being taxied for take-off, stoop into hole, causing aircraft to stand on nose, damaging airscrew and cowl. Crew; Pilot, F/Sgt M G Thomas and Navigator F/O K S Ascough not injured. Repaired by 4CU. Issued 3CU ex 4CU 25/06/45. Accident 31/11/45 when damaged on landing. NFDs. Rec 2AD ex 3CU 09/04/46. Stored Cat E 01/10/46. Approved for free issue to Royal Australian Navy 27/04/48. Issued to RAN 02/03/49.

A27-506 41-31305 Nil Vultee A-35B-5-VN RAN Rec 2AD ex USA 24/12/43. Rec 4ADRP ex 2AD by 2AP Ferry 30/03/44. Rec 1AD ex 4ADRP 15/06/44. Rec 7OTU ex 1AD 26/10/44. Rec 7AD Storage ex 7OTU 13/12/45. Store Cat E CMU Tocumwal. Held by Det B 1AD 11/07/49. Issued to RANFAA ex Tocumwal 14/03/51. SOC 15/03/51. NFDs in RANFAA Service.

A27-526 41-31445 Nil Vultee A-35B-5-VN RAN Rec 3AD ex USA 24/01/44. Rec 1AD ex 3AD 14/07/44 for Target Towing Modifications. Reserved for Target towing 13/10/44. Rec 7OTU ex 1AD 07/12/44. Rec 7AD Storage ex 7OTU 13/12/45. Authorised for write-off 16/05/46. Stored Cat E 01/10/46. Held by Det B 1AD Tocumwal 11/07/49. Approved fro issue ex Det B 1AD Tocumwal to RAN 01/11/50. Issued to RAN 14/03/51. SOC 15/03/51.

A27-530 41-31435 Nil Vultee A-35B-5-VN RAN Rec 2AD ex USA 01/02/44. Rec 25Sqn RAAF ex 2AD 22/03/44. Rec 1AD ex 25Sqn RAAF 115/06/44 for Target Towing Modifications. Reserved for Target towing 13/10/44. Rec 7OTU ex 1AD 05/02/45. Rec 7AD Storage ex 7OTU 30/11/45. Authorised for write-off 16/05/46. Stored Cat E 01/10/46. Held by Det B 1AD Tocumwal 11/07/49. Approved for issue ex Det B 1AD Tocumwal to RAN. Issued to RANFAA 02/04/50.

A27-563 42-94222 Nil Vultee A-35B-10-VN RAN Rec 2AD ex USA 26/03/44. Aircraft issued 1AD ex 2AD for Target Towing Modification 11/10/44. Rec 1AD ex 2AD 13/10/44. Rec 3CU ex 1AD 27/07/45. Accident 11/10/45 on approach of Runway 22 at Mascot Aerodrome, the pilot was advised that A27-626 was on the runway and to go around. The pilot did another circuit and attempted to land on runway 29 with a cross wind. The aircraft did not touch down until it covered 1/3 of the strip, and owing to spongy brakes, ground looped to the right to prevent it from running into a ditch, causing the port mainplane to strike a boundary light and the aircraft to tip on its nose, bending the airscrew blades. Crew: Pilot, F/O P R Irwin Serv#424186 and WAG F/Sgt R S Simpson Serv#439498 were not injured. Repairs made at 3CU 23/10/45. Rec 2AD ex 3CU 09/04/46. Category E Storage 01/10/46. Offered to RAN 27/04/48. Issued to RAN FAA ex 2AD 02/03/49. NFDs per RANFAA Service.

A27-600 42-94458 Nil Vultee A-35B-15-VN RAN Rec 2AD ex USA 05/03/44. Allotted Target Towing modification 1AD ex 2AD 14/06/44. Rec 1AD ex 2AD 20/06/44. Aircraft reserved for target towing 13/10/44. Allotted 5CU ex 1AD 28/10/44. Canc. Rec 7OTU ex 1AD 05/04/45. Rec 7AD Storage ex 7OTU 30/11/45. Store Cat E CMU Tocumwal. Held by Det B 1AD 11/07/49. Issued to RANFAA ex Tocumwal 14/03/51. SOC 15/03/51. NFDs in RANFAA Service.

A27-617 42-94371 Nil Vultee A-35B-15-VN RAN Rec 1AD ex USA 16/04/44. Aircraft reserved for target towing 13/10/44. Allotted 14ARDRP 19/10/44. Canc. Rec 7OTU ex 1AD 09/03/45. Rec 7AD ex 7OTU 13/12/45. Stored Cat E 01/10/46. Held by Det B 1AD Tocumwal 11/07/49. Approved for issue RAN 01/11/50. Issued Dept of Navy ex Det B 1AD 01/05/51. NFDs per RAN FAA Service.


Four that didn't get into the Navy:

A27-97 41-31049 EZ997 Northrop A-31-NO RAN A-31C/Mk111? Rec 2AD ex USA 20/06/43. Rec 2AD 30/10/44. Issued 2CRD ex 2AD for storage 12/02/46. Authorised for write off 16/05/46. Rec 2AD ex 2CRD 05/06/46. Approval to transfer to RANFAA for ground instruction 27/04/48. Cancelled 11/06/48. Passed to DAP 24/06/48. Issued to DAP 17/09/48. SOC 06/09/49.

A27-98 41-31050 EZ998 Northrop A-31-NO RAN A-31C/Mk111? Rec 2AD ex USA 20/06/43. Rec 2AD 30/10/44. Issued 2CRD ex 2AD for storage 12/02/46. Authorised for write off 16/05/46. Rec 2AD ex 2CRD 05/06/46. Approval to transfer to RANFAA for ground instruction 27/04/48. Cancelled 11/06/48. Passed to DAP 24/06/48. Issued to DAP 17/09/48. SOC 06/09/49. So this one isn't counted,..OK!

A27-99 41-31051 EZ999 Northrop A-31-NO RAN A-31C/Mk111? Rec 2AD ex USA 20/06/43. Rec 2AD 30/10/44. Issued 2CRD ex 2AD for storage 12/02/46. Authorised for write off 16/05/46. Rec 2AD ex 2CRD 05/06/46. Approval to transfer to RANFAA for ground instruction 27/04/48. Cancelled 11/06/48. Passed to DAP 24/06/48. Issued to DAP 17/09/48. SOC 06/09/49. Still exists as the only complete Vengeance in the world. It is based at the Camden Museum of Aviation at Narellan NSW.

A27-400 41-31230 FD101 Vultee A-35A-VN RAN MV Vito. Rec 2AD ex USA 12/07/43. Deemed not suitable for operations. Issued and rec 2AD Storage ex 2AD 30/10/44. Allocated 2CRD ex 2AD storage 30/08/45. Issued 2CRD ex 2AD Storage 28/11/45. To be stored insitu 22/05/46. Authorised for Write-off 16/05/46. Rec 2AD ex 2CRD 05/06/46. Stored Cat E 01/10/46. Approved for free issue to Royal Australian Navy 27/04/48. Cancelled 11/06/48. Passed to DAP 24/06/48. Action completed 06/09/49. Issued to DAP 17/09/48.



And,...... one more that was destroyed by the Royal Australian Navy (Don't let it be said I lack depth( Excuse Navy Pun)Okay :ph34r:

A27-627 42-94405 Nil Vultee A-35B-15-VN RAN Disposed :) Rec 3AD ex USA 26/04/44. Aircraft reserved for target towing 13/10/44. Rec 1AD ex 3AD 13/03/45. Issued SHQ Flight Laverton Vic ex 1AD 25/07/45. Accident 1105hrs 30/07/45 when aircraft suffered an explosion in flight , followed by engine failure causing the pilot to force land on the mud bank near the western passage opposite of Fairhaven, Western Port Bay. Crew: Pilot, W/O L M Bennett Serv#437042 and W/O B G Scholes were not injured. Allocated 1CRD ex SHQ Laverton 10/08/45. Approval to dispose of aircraft insitu 14/08/45. Aircraft destroyed insitu by Royal Australian Navy using explosives 17/08/45. Remains Rec 1CRD ex 1AD by road 29/10/45.


There you have it,...12 plus 4 that didn't make it, and one they sunk on behalf of the RAAF B)

Best
Gordy,.......A27-14 below

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Who said Sea Fire? I didn't

Hey, Gordy, maybe it was that other Warhawk guy.
Not you at all :o

Thanks One and All,

I think that we have enough here to put together a couple of pages on our Spitifes & Vengeances crediting you all.

On reflection, I wonder how the Spits would have gone as deck handling trainers on hot day given the Merlin's propensity to overheat. :blink:

They must have been fairly short training sessions!

Gords - I did check our 2A58 page and as a guide to going back to the E/E.88s. I figured that you hadn't gotten to some of those airframes yet as you would have corrected the "Seafire" reference. B)

Thanks Luig, Batman & Gordy for the input, photos an stories.

Cheers


Brendan

A few more notes on Vengeances transferred to the RN FAA from Ray Sturtivant's "Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939 to 1945" published by Air Britain in 1995

He says that 25 RAAF Vengeances were allocated for RN use in Australia but only 9 were actually delivered. Those not delivered were: A27-401,509,511-516, 540, 542, 543, 546, 548, 564, 612, and 614.

There are limited records of the use of those that were delivered but he has:

A27-502 (ex 41-31300) Issued from 1 AD Laverton 7/10/45
A27-520 (ex 41-31436) Issued from 1 AD Laverton 7/10/45. 791 Sqn Sembawang 1/46
A27-529 (ex 41-31430) Issued from 1 AD Laverton to Bankstown 19/10/45
A27-539 (ex 41-31431) Issued from 1 AD Laverton 9/9/45. Modified for DDT spraying. 721 Sqn Kai Tak 1946
A27-545 (ex 41-31421) Issued from 1 AD Laverton 9/9/45. Modified for DDT spraying. 721 Sqn Kai Tak. Loss of power on take off 6/4/46 (Sub Lt N.C. Burrage). Fire in engine bay 24/9/46 (Sub Lt G.R. Harrison)
A27-547 (ex 41-31425) Issued from 1AD Laverton 7/10/45. Papers deposited as having been struck off charge 25/6/46.
A27-549 (ex 41-31438) Issued from 1 AD Laverton 7/10/45
A27-619 (ex 42-94379) Issued from 1 APU Laverton to Bankstown 6/9/45. Modified for DDT spraying. 721 Sqn Kai Tak 9/46. Force landed after engine fire 29/11/46 (Sub Lt M.H. Simpson)
A27-625 (ex 42-94401) Issued from 3 AD Amberley 10/10/45. Returned to 3 AD 6/12/45.

The RN operated at least 113 other Vengeances transferred from RAF stocks. 791 Sqn at Sembawang operated Vengeances to at least 12/46 and the last record of RN Vengeance use was when one was returned to RAF Changi 1/4/47.

Joe

Thanks Guys,

I've thrown up a temporary page for each type, which I will refine soon and get more photos incorporated.

See http://www.adf-serials.com.au/ran.htm

I've put these pages together really quicklyso I can head off to the family easter do's and am bound to have provided you all with some errors and ommisions for you to point out! ;)

Thanks again for your input and assistance!

Cheers & Happy Easter

BC

Hi Joe

Re: "He says that 25 RAAF Vengeances were allocated for RN use in Australia but only 9 were actually delivered. Those not delivered were: A27-401,509,511-516, 540, 542, 543, 546, 548, 564, 612, and 614. "


Ah I counted twice per A27-529 ,...so I agree with the same number, so its 16 not accepted, not 17

RNFAA issued, A27-502/520/[B]529/539/545/547/549/619/625[/B], with another 17 allocated, but not transferred;
A27-401/509/511/512/513/514/515/516/529/540/542/543/546/548/564/612 and 614) to Royal Navy ex 1AD 07/10/45


And you're rightttttttttttttttttt,..bloody Sea Fires!!! Me of all people!!

Should be "Terra Australias Fires"
Best
Gordy

Ok,..I'm sane again :D

Here's more pics of A58-211,..in all of its history

Original after crash 1943 with 452Sqn RAAF

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When in natural metal in storage before RANFAA

Best
Gordy



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Gordy
It's okay, calm down.
We know you are the "Oracle on all things P-40".
Just 'coz you know nothing of Spitfires (or Seafires!!), it doesn't matter. :D

Thanks Gordy,

Our friend the "Phantom" has also chipped in with this listing of some of the RN FAA Seafires/Spitfires in Australia, plus some spits bound for Australia that never made it:

Thanks Phantom.

BC

Thanks

Have the SS Silver Beech list, but the number is 11

Add JK258, JK273, JK331

But don't forget also the first lot that went administratively halfway to Oz in the first batch

Missing 42 Spitfire MkVc on the SS Nigertown 20/06/42 that were diverted to Takoradi, Ghana.
BR234, 235,361, 389, 390, 392, 393, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 473, 474, 475, 476, 477, 478, 479, 481, 483, 487, 491, 492, 494, 515, 516, 517, 518, 519, 520, 521, 522, 523, 524, 526, 573, 576, 580, 582, 583, 586.


Sea Fires! Yeap, heaps in Oz from 1944 to 1946,..6AD and 2AD even assembled for RNFAA. 6AD started May 1945 with 10 S/Spit IIIs.

RAAF Records have Sea Fire III PR175 as the first, then PR954(This serial does not gel but should be PR254), PR200, PR236, PR260 and PR209 to be issued to RNFAA in July 45.

Then PR202, PR242,

RAF Records have:

PR175 Seafire III West M56 AID check 29-11-44 807S 7-45
PR200 Seafire III West M55 RNDA 18-11-44
PR202 Seafire III West M55 RNDA 25-11-44 39MU to Filton 12-1-45


PR209 Seafire III West M55 RNDA 30-11-44 887S 2-45 to 5-45 894S floated into barrier HMS Indefatigable 21-11-45
PR236 Seafire III West M55M RNDA 30-11-44 1PATP Southport 2-45 VASM refurb to FVc standard to IAC155 del by Sgt Conway to Ballydonnell 29-9-47 withdrawn service 8-8-54 scrap 1962 This aircraft had wings of NF575 fitted
PR242 Seafire III West M55 RNDA 30-11-44 Machrihanish to Lee-on-Solent by S/L Ellis 3/4-4-46

PR254 Seafire III West M55 RNDA 9-12-44 894S Indefatigable ('145/S') A6M shot down in sea Sakishima Islands 1730 4-5-45 (Lt AS Macleod RNZN)

PR260 Seafire III West M55 RNDA 9-12-44

More of them are as follows:

PR295/PR300/PR301/PR302/PR303/PR305/PR306/PR307/PR308

Example History:
PR295 Seafire III West M55 RNDA 22-12-44 1PATP Southport 4-45 887S ('127/S') TAMY1 Archerfield to Schofields 19-11-45

So there's some leads for someone who does RNFAA History, as I have only 59 Spits V to do, before I move onto P-40s

Below, a Bankstown RNFAA Sea Fire, infact,.....PR295 127/S in good times

Best
Gordy :D

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Thanks Gordy,

Maybe some day some one will want to help us fully record all the RN FAA types that passed through OZ.

It would be fascinating reading.

Great to see the extra photos of A58-211.

Still seems odd to me that one Mk.Vc made it's way to the RAN.


Cheers

BC

Just out of interest and peripherally relevant to this discussion, my old man was part of the loan program from the RN to the RAN in the mid 1950s. He flew Sea Furies and Fireflies. He has regaled us on numerous occaisions with stories of the training in aircraft handling down on the dummy deck with time expired aircraft. Apparently they would follow the directions of the trainee regardless of whether he was directing them straight into another aircraft or whatever. Not much care was lavished on the aircraft, just check the fluid levels and who cares what the outcome might be. If the engine in one aircraft died, then boo hoo, jump into another one. Seems astonishing to us nowadays, but I suppose aircraft were comparitively cheaper then.

I recall when I was at Nowra in the late 70s, early 80s winning a bottle of scotch from one of the other officers on the squadron thanks to the dummy deck. I had mentioned that sea venoms were made partly of wood and he did not believe me. I bet him a bottle and then took him down there and showed him. Thanks de Havilland, it was very nice!

This post has been edited by Nick Thorne on Apr 19 2012, 12:47 PM

Thanks Nick,

Great stories. :D

You can see by the photos (particurlay the one with the scruffy paintwork and graffitti from Batman) that the Spits were not well cared for. Their finish reminds me of the graffiti on the old Point Cook sight board!

The ultimate expression of the low value of the aircraft at the time was their burn-bash-and-bury fate.

Now we will send expeditions to Burma backed with the highest level of diplomacy to recover them from the grave - Times have changed alright!

Perhaps we all need a scotch! :blink:

BC

Gordy,

I was just thinking about:

Maybe we should have called them "Sea Capstans" to keep opposition force Deck Handlers guessing?

:P

BC

Interestingly, maybe they should have been called "Sea Kingdoms"

Its the original Code for them before the use of the Capstan name: "Kingdoms"

True.

Anyway I found a pic of RNFAA Sea Fire PR196 after assembly at Oakey, but before RNFAA SEAC markings were applied.

Lets not get started on land based Fairey Barracudas in Oz in 1944-1945

Best
Gordy :blink:

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Meanwhile, back on Spitfire MKVIII's of the RANFAA

We've IDed AH3 and now note that alot of these late model Spits never carried, though allocated, their A58 Serials

Take MV203 ala A58-752,.....AH3

A58-752 HF.VIII MV203 RAN AH3 Rec 2AD ex UK 14/05/45. A/c allocated A58-series, but not carried 17/05/45. Rec at 2AD Storage 07/05/46 ex 2AD. Merlin 70 Series Engine allocated for use after modification in CAC Mustang manufacture due to short fall in supply along with 88 other stored MkVIII HFs. Approval to transfer to RAN FAA 11/06/48. Issued to RAN 27/10/48. Marked AH3. The Spitfire's were taxied around the dummy deck at Nowra and used to train ground handling staff. They were all used on the fire ground in the 1950's and remains reported to have been bulldozed into the ground.


One Spurtfire down, so you mob can ID the rest :P

Ciao
Gordy :blink: Pic dated 1949

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Bravo Gordy,

One down, fourteen to go! :D

I wonder which engines these airframes ended up with, given that they were fitted with three blade props instead of the original four bladers from the Merlin 70's?

:blink:

BC

Good question if the Merlin 60/70's went into the CAC Mustang Line it seems. But they had Packhards, so they weren't used

So I'd say ex RR Merlin M46s ex MkVs at most(Doubtful due to M70 exhaust studs) with just the change of standard metal blades of the MKVs rather then the wooden per MKVIIIs due to the malibility of Metal with big 14lb hammers swung by muscle bound Navy Squids. :P

Even AH4 carried the three blade props, so I'd say all had them and that they lasted longer then wooden ones of the MKVIIIs.

Cheers
Gordy :ph34r:

Good theory Gords!

:D

BC