Why does the SAS use the M4?

[F/A-18 Super Bug]

Rather than the F88 Styer? When did they change?

[Warhawk]

In short, the weapon is adjustable in length, more robust, able to be adapted with several add ons( Night/Laser/Reflex Lenses/telescope through picanilly rail systems), and still maintain a reasonable centre of gravity, left or right hand used, and single handed.
Can carry a M203 Grenade Launcher

Works well after being emersed in saltwater, sand and dust. Can handle several types of Magazines, including F-88A1, standard M-16A4 20/30/100 Mags. Came in different barrell lengths, which reflects different rates of fire and range.

9 in 1 twist handling the current standard more reliable and cleaner NATO SS109 Round( heavier then standard F1 5.56mm Round thus penetration of thick Tailban Clothing and the odd bullett proof jacket, currently used in F-88A1. Soon ADF will be going over to new compatiable Ammo (F1A1) 5.56mm.

Mind you, most replaced in SF service with H&K HK416/417 reworked M-4 German Clone with machined roller bearings and receiver and that can handle new 7.62 NATO Receiver and barrell, as well as standard 5.56mm Barrel assembly. Deemed as a modular system with some SF persons carrying both for different jobs

Originally in 80's , F-88 was second choice to M-16A2 as Colt would not allow licence built M-16A2s to be made in Australia. Steyer did, so they got the contract.

Still a good bullpup design, but was originally a lightweight and built with a 4X standard scope. Later added a green laser for night fighting, then came the picanilly rail version for specialist scopes and sights.

In original form, could not take a M203 under slung Grenade Launcher, until in late ninties in F-88A2 form. Until then, the old M79 had to carry on.
F88SA2 is the latest model of the F88 Austeyr series

Original M-16A1 had been in service since 1967 as a Forward Scout and NCO weapon, replacing the 60's F1 Submachine Carbine. Propgressivly replacing the Owen and F1 in CMF /Ares service in the late 70's, whilst the L1A1 SLR remained standard.

The F-88 Rifle and Carbine replaced both types in the late 80's. Standard range per infantry is out to 300 metres, whereas the SF Boys are up and close per the 5.56mm and use 7.62 out to 300metres for penetration

Hope that answers your comment,

Best
Gordy :ph34r:



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[F/A-18 Super Bug]

Thanks Warhawk that was VERY informative! I just have a few more questions.

So are Australia's SF using the M4A5 or the H&K HK416/417? They look so similar.

I didn't realise that the Styer was a second choice. Why didn't we just buy the M16A2 directly from Colt in the US? Why did we have to build them in Australia? We buy enough of there equipment and hardware straight off their factory line. Case in Point the Super Hornets.

Thanks

Simon

[Warhawk]

We have a long history of "self sufficenty", but..........

We did assemble the F/A-18A/B in the 80's and 90's with both USA and Aus parts, but that was on a basis of a 73 aircraft program, with a further 2 built in the US of A.

As with the F/A-18F/F+ the amount didn't warrant local assemble as our workforce wasn't there, and the time line dictated that the program be delivered urgently.

We have made our own naval Ships,.....our own Phased Array Radar, our own Subs, and now assembling our own Airwarfare Destroyers, with only the superstructure being made for our LPD Ships. Again due to labour skills available.

Because of the current aircraft programs,........F-35 etc, that as part of the contract, have lucridative sole source parts sourcing for partner nations, one building a particular part for all F-35s produced, its more profitable for the smaller number compared to past programs of yesteryear

We have produced Rifles since 1916, machine guns in thirties, Anti tank guns, 25pdr Gun/Howitzers/ 3.7inch AAGuns, Universal Carriers, and the worlds first cast Tanks, Sub-machine guns since 1942, etc, along with many types of aircraft. Leading up to the Mirage 111O/D.

All licensed approved, so when they say no, we don't make it and find a substitute of equal quality.

Back to your M4 question,...The Navy's CDT uses them, RAAF's 4Sqn, Army's 1CR, and 2CR, SOAR, TAG East/West,and SASR, Land Warefare Group, with a few sprinkled through Reco Platoons in Regular Army Battalions.

Best
Gordy

[F/A-18 Super Bug]

Anyone know which units in the ADF use the Mk19 Grenade Launcher? Or is it just for SF?

[Daniel Cox]

Hi All,

I once lived with a chap who was involved with the trials and concur with Gordy that the M16A2 was the preferred rifle.

Before we received the F-88 Steyr I have to say I really looked forward to it and was happy to trade my tired M16A1 for the new gat. That said I was really disappointed following conversion, I didn't like the ergonomics I found it slower to fix stoppages than the M16. The plastic dust cover over the unused ejection port often came unstuck due to glue failure requiring the expedient use of tape to fix it. Optics also came unstuck inside the sight carry handle causing the cross hairs to rotate. I never used the German trials bayonet but I can say the M9 Fighting Knife had a habit of snapping on bayonet assault courses which didn't occur when using the M7 bayonet as an alternative. I hated the 1.5 scope I even preferred the iron sights on an SLR or M16 over the F88 optics. Alternatively I thought the Wildcat sight was terrific on the Steyr. Did I mention salt water! etc. etc.

At least they finally attached the GLA to the Steyr to go from the M203 to a F88 and the M79 was poor although that said the M79 on it's own as a grenade launcher is in my experience more accurate than using the M203.

The M4 in terms of operation is little different from the M16 i.e. stoppages are very rapidly fixed, the Steyr and M16 series are both accurate and effective rifles I just preferred the M16.

The idea of putting a gas piston in the H&K version is a terrific idea if it reduces the crap that the gas tube blows into the receiver of M16 type rifles.

As to the F88 Steyr today as far as I'm aware they have improved it since I last used one 9 years ago, so I have no opinion regarding the latest version of it.

Cheers,


Daniel.

[Aardvark]

In Vietnam the SAS used some very modified L1's. Most common mod was shortening the barrel to the front of the gas block with enough left to screw on the flash eliminator and fitted with an XM148 Grenade Launcher.

One particular rifle was an L1/L2 using an L2 barrel machined down to about 4 inches and then the gas block fitted and the flash eliminator on the front. I guess that this would have been described as a L1 SMG. Would have been wild to fire.

They also had various M-16's and Stoners. Apparently they also carried Sterling SMG's with supressors (L34A1) as secondary weapons.

This post has been edited by Aardvark on Sep 5 2012, 09:03 PM